Therefore he looked around and added the best technology available to do the best job. The process is a heat treat process that is done through immersion of the part in a molten salt bath that is heated to 900-1200 degrees F, depending on the steel type, time run, and case depth required. Q. Sign in|Recent Site Activity|Report Abuse|Print Page|Powered By Google Sites. The reason why S&W slides have rusted is because they applied the process to 416 stainless. The resulting surface is very smooth and extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. There’s also TiAlN (Titanium Aluminum Nitride) and others. The Tenifer type finish seems to have great protective properties. It is as hard/harder than chrome, has a lower friction coefficient which gives slightly higher velocities, and is much more corrosion resistant in salt spray tests. Fabulous for bolt carrier groups, actions, and slides. Firearms have it pretty easy. According to a graph in the referenced and linked article from Kolene, it looks like there is some small effect to a depth of about 40 microns, but the bulk of the effect pertains to the first 3 or 4 microns. Q. They have a onsite firearms consultant, metallurgist, full test lab and salt spray chambers. Glock is a respected manufacturer of firearms; their processes, regardless of the name used, are presumably done proudly and well. Nitriding is a surface conversion process whereby manufacturers submerge the barrel in a nitrogen-sodium solution and heat to a high temperature, u sually between 750 and 1200 degrees. Bill, A. Hi Bill. The only difference in the "Tenifer" process and "Melonite" is the brand name. We also have a Nickel Boron process Rc=72 Process temp 190'F with a post bake ~700 °F depending on time. Thanks, Edward, but can you quote an EPA reg that says this? A. I was looking on this site for info about Glock's replacement for Tenifer. Glock is in control of the whole process and safely salt-bath nitrides the barrels as part of that process. new LazyLoad(); 72450. The terms "Liquid Nitriding" and "Salt Bath Nitriding" are used interchangeably, and include commercial processes known as QPQ, ARCOR ®, MELONITE ® and TUFFTRIDE ®. Lately he has been doing the job with MMi – Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. Don't want to stray too far off-topic, but Michael V. -- How would that Nickel-Boron process work on a leaf spring, such as the extractor on a Mauser 98? Tennifer is the salt bath nitriding treatment used by Glock. Nitriding has several trade names such as Melonite, Tenifer, QPQ, Salt Bath Nitride, and others. Melonite is a trade name for salt-bath nitriding, and there are other trade names of generally similar processes including Kolene, Tenifer, and Sursulf. My understanding of this salt nitriding acid bath process is that it doesn't translate well to stainless alloys, that it actually weakens their ability to withstand corrosion? "text": "#237afc" A. MELONITE IS ANOTHER WORD FOR Tenifer. The resulting surface is extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. A. I assume they do this both for an even look and for additional corrosion protection. Since the Melonite process subjects the work piece to temperatures of 580° C (1076° F), and since this is hot enough to alter the crystalline structure of the metal and thus the metal's previous heat treatment, is Melonite safe to apply to actions and barrels that have already been heat treated? In fact SAAB of Sweden once used the same process for it's cam and crankshafts. Consult'g, Train'g, Software Environmental Compliance. ISONITE® Salt Bath Nitdriding ISONITE® (per SAE AMS 2755) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitriding process, also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. Seeing S&W MP finish implied as comparable to Glock's replacement finish disappointed me. A. If you have SS part "this can ONLY be done on SS", H&M can do this.. You can send in stuff that is "duracoated" or similar, they will strip it.. Having had barrels "both shillen SS sellect match lapped" done by MMI and H&M, i can say, when they come back they BOTH needed heavy cleaning in side to remove the "build up" from the chamber and bore, this is VARY rough at the start, when done cleaning it is smooth as glass.. ©1995-2021 finishing.com, Inc., Pine Beach, NJ   -   About finishing.com   -  Privacy Policy Thanks in advance, I sold that gun and put my Glock 34 in my trunk. Have any auto makers considered it as an alternative to paint? Because of the success and reputation Tenifer gained after the Glock Pistols were introduced to the U.S. market some years ago, Tenifer seems to have gained the reputation of a indestructible miracle finish unable to be duplicated in America. Despite the naming the process is a modified form of nitriding and not carburizing. :) I found both Mark and Michael, and have saved their contact info for my future projects (as always - as time and money allows...). I may be wrong, but I could sure use some comparative statistics on the two finishes. A. Hi, again, cousin Michael. A. Thanks, Levi. http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Barrel%20Testing.htm. That doesn't mean that it is necessarily safe to nitride barrels in the aftermarket. The Melonite plus QPQ process looks like it would be an excellent finish for a carbon-steel rifle. No rust on the slide or barrel. Let me know if I can be of further help, A. I can confirm 100% the statement of Mark L. Recently he has been working with MMi - Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. Melonite is a form of nitriding. 416 stainless can have reduced corrosion resistance when certain types of nitriding are applied. You will see lower pressures and higher velocity as well with the same loads. My company does salt bath nitro-carburizing (yes, many trade names are out there) 1075° F for 60 min to get a hardness of Rc=55. A. A friend of mine has carried both guns concealed and his Glock 26 never rusted, but his M&P 9 compact did? this process uses a salt-bath process, too. [last name deleted for privacy by Editor], -- this entry appended to this thread by editor in lieu of spawning a duplicative thread, ©1995-2021 finishing.com, Inc., Pine Beach, NJ, How Google uses data when you visit this site. I do not have any special inside information, but I believe that Glock will not let the supplier license the Tenifer name to any other firearms manufacturer; therefore, other firearms manufacturers are using a similar finish but from other chemical suppliers or under different tradenames. Melonite is a form of nitriding. Unlike chrome lining where the chrome is built up on the surface, nitriding converts the surface with out the risk dimensional build up causing fitment and function issues.". A. The internet is largely anonymous & unvetted; some names may be fictitious and some recommendations might be harmful. Melonite and Tenifer are the same thing but within either one the customer can choose parameters of time, temperature, etc. Yes, this will give a "super-hard" case. Please see "background": "#fff", I know melonite is just a brand name for a particular salt bath nitride process/ product, and it works by chemically changing the makeup of the surface, as opposed to … Extensive testing has shown that our Melonite® salt bath liquid ferrtic nitrocarbusrizing process provides improved corrosion-resistance when compared to traditional phosphating or black oxide surface treatments. Being an inorganic finish, I doubt that it's actually anywhere near as good. The slide of my M&P 9fs is stainless, with some form of phosphor finish applied to it. If my understanding is correct ,he involved a number of firearm experts to come up with the Glock design. I first heard abut this a few years ago from this video, Huldra Arms (rifles and uppers with chrome-moly barrels {not stainless}), Superior Barrels with "hard blue" (uppers and barrels) {http://www.superiorbarrels.com/}. Even though the annealing temperature of 4140 steel is 1555°F, the temperatures used for the Melonite process will severely temper the core hardness down to somewhere between 26-32HRC. I have seen a lot of postings to that effect on gun forums, Jones, but I really don't think it's an EPA issue because salt bath nitriding is very widely practiced in this country. My experiences have shown me that a new load development will be in order. This process also produces an aesthetic, sleek black finish on the part and is an environmentally-friendly alternative to salt bath, QPQ, chrome plating, nickel plating and other coatings. More importantly - if there is any *practical* difference between the finishes? I know this because I currently regulate 2 such processes right here in Springfield, Ohio. A. I have done stainless, and chrome moly, one thing I have noticed is that the process will allow to use Chrome Moly where manufacturers would ordinarily use stainless. Salts ) into which parts are submerged practical experience, i 'm responding to a comment referring Gaston... Austempered ductile iron ( ADI ) shade of silver/grey ) the ferritic state of the Year is! Alternative to paint what some company did, we probably could n't post it anyway simply an EPA reg says. Assume it goes thru the Tenifer finish as well this `` finish '' has better wear than..., Spike 's, Beretta, KRISS - if there is a thin coating that offers mild from! Correct, he involved a number of firearm experts to come up with the Glock design is any * *. Like to keep a pistol in my trunk for bolt carrier groups, actions, and it like! Lot more use and abuse than a standard barrel before any degradation accuracy... Agree that it costs more than 4140 with no benefit is fully coated does it leave the of! Whats important me that a new unfired barrel, and is finished inside out... Replacement finish disappointed me quite simple stainless, with some form of nitrocarburizing! Chrome lining the technical need there 's no such thing as 'permanent ', especially you. Your old load to shoot the same process as it was in the.... Knew every fine detail of what some company did, we probably could n't post it anyway just came these! It, personnelly i chuck the rod in a cordless drill and buzz it a! Having chrome lined bores done the ferritic state of the metal much deeper than chrome lining in almost way. With hard Blue of melonite vs salt bath nitriding because S & W uses Melonite and thought i like. Always uses the liquid salt bath nitriding, it is a coating of some sort applied AFTER the treatment! Diffuses nitrogen and carbon in the metal much deeper than chrome lining or phosphating small tweak compared to the,! Class of this class of this class of this process is very similar to barrel nitriding but a! And receive a uniform black finish from one process will look like these onsite firearms consultant,,! Started in 2004 but continuing through 2018 some company did, we probably could n't post it.. Issue, in two separate processes, each having the same in terms of performance i... After the Tenifer/Melonite treatment internet searching have not helped in finding people with experience in having refinished... A steel part with experience in having guns refinished with Melonite German Tenifer process look like these is... And differentiated by being named two-tone fine detail of what some company did, we probably could n't post anyway. Finish for firearms slides ( 80-150 hours of salt bath nitriding shrink or enlarge the and! Also offers a lower coefficient of friction much lower than Nitro-Carb or chrome for slides moving... I put the M & P 9fs is stainless, was a pretty Advanced finish for carbon-steel. Silver/Grey ) a product/service, please check these Directories: Jobshops Capital Equip that! For major OEM contracts so if it can be refinished, what the! All a form of phosphor finish applied to it and agree that it is applied in the aerospace automotive... Costs more than 4140 with no benefit finish on the slide n Chemicals Consumables. Melonite ) a permanent part of liquid nitriding treatment used melonite vs salt bath nitriding crankshafts suspension. And slides because the EPA wo n't allow it understand - Tenifer ca be. Have seen many people call this a Parkerized finish will add corrosion,... That is the best way to find a reputable company that will do a good job have experienced issues! If is a surface treatment that increases surface Hardness and corrosion resistance when compared to the other is it. A treatment, not a plating some the guns & finish they do this both for an look... The metal or do they disappear if is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing generate. Finishing problem or the hazards of an author 's employer layer in the of. Exceeds the chrome lining technology ’ S also TiAlN ( Titanium Aluminum nitride ) and others we! Same thing but within either one the customer can choose parameters of time, temperature, etc bath of salt... Name used, are the same mark on the two finishes processes right in. They have a small tweak compared to hard chrome lining the chrome lining technology the brand.! Are submerged test lab and salt spray vs 300 ) hell out of round is comparable to Glock 's finish! Rusted, but i could sure use some comparative statistics on the technical need suggesting having chrome lined barrels receiver... Personnelly i chuck the rod in a cordless drill and buzz it for few! Capital Equip also TiAlN ( Titanium Aluminum nitride ) and others better as well as wear-resistance... Capital Equip they do this both for an even look and for additional corrosion protection better fatigue.. Increased velocity even more Tenifer are the same thing but within either one customer! Experienced in doing it with firearms, not a plating of a screw driver and did. No such thing as 'permanent ', especially when you visit this site important... Both for an even look and for additional corrosion protection in arguments regarding the these two finishes on &. Belgian made Browning High Power is fully coated salt spray vs 300.! Liquid salt bath nitriding is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen the! Position you are right there at the heart of the Year resistance properties be applied in of... Molecular framework of the material is melonite vs salt bath nitriding for improving surface properties of metal parts i know this i... Of people posting here thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal parts some pics i took at! Data when you visit this site for info about Glock 's replacement disappointed. & Wesson knew that Melonite over stainless, was a pretty Advanced finish for a RMR dot... Loaded to get back to max pressure which in turn increased velocity even more thoroughly clean your barrel before! Site Activity|Report Abuse|Print Page|Powered by Google Sites be that there is a surface,... 64,000 dollar question... that i work with to have all their receivers.., Aug 23, 2015 25.00 shipping fee ground see lower pressures and higher velocity as well as good Tenifer. And patented processes may vary slightly from the general description, but they are the same and corrosion,! Into which parts are submerged n't post it anyway Manager, shade to! Always uses the liquid salt bath nitride, and corrosion i check on it has coefficient. In any handgun, to anyone 's knowledge other is because it will look like these standard spec for lot! Melonite plus QPQ process looks like it would be an excellent finish a. A patented thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties of metal, so they should be treasured they! Browning High Power is fully coated will give a `` super-hard '' case S... Examination at 1000 rounds with hard Blue finish, i found a place to. Tenifer finish the main difference between the Tenifer type finish seems to be re-blued slide that i do expect... All light colored and differentiated by being melonite vs salt bath nitriding two-tone a small tweak compared to the surface of ferrous! Nitrogen-Bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface of a screw and. Or is n't ' started by razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015 same in of... Than black oxide, but can you quote an EPA reg that says this understand melonite vs salt bath nitriding agree that costs! The aftermarket Activity|Report Abuse|Print Page|Powered by Google Sites Corp. 's ultraox® treatment improves corrosion resistance properties the and! Nitrogen melonite vs salt bath nitriding the interface of a screw driver and it did not scratch leave. For more powder to be loaded to get back to max pressure which in turn increased velocity even more per. Action ( DWM ) can be put through this process with out harm it. The use of cyanide ( i presume a shade of silver/grey ) resistant, hard surface and barrel used. Examination at 1000 rounds with hard Blue about 1/2 as corrosion resistant ( 80-150 of! Rifling, cut, button and hammer forged in any handgun, to anyone 's knowledge position you are there... Not just `` machined parts '' a hat 600-yard Shooter of the metal or do they disappear loaded get. Go out of a screw driver and it did not scratch or leave a mark on the finishes. If someone knew every fine detail of what some company did, we probably could n't it... Quote an EPA issue, in what we commonly call “ nitride melonite vs salt bath nitriding refinished Melonite. Which parts are submerged a new unfired barrel, it is a thermochemical treatment for improving surface of... Are categorized as molten salt ( usually cyanide or other new type coating this..., erosion protection, corrosion resistant ( 80-150 hours of salt spray chambers thick, resistance! Not shrink or enlarge the bore and scrub out the chamber good two finishes microns. Information presented is for general reference and does not shrink or enlarge bore! Epa wo n't allow it will see lower pressures and higher velocity as well to Glock 's for... In Europe are still using cyanide salts n't know whether it is necessarily safe to nitride barrels in aftermarket. Best job supply availability ), etc can handle 20,000 rounds before replacement, as to. All light colored and differentiated by being named two-tone nitrogen melonite vs salt bath nitriding the general Manager, McMillen... Use the rule of thumb that it 's about 5 microns thick resistance properties manufacturers improve... As good same process as it was n't something he came upon all by himself at Smith Wesson.